Recording of Billy Graham
“We have one task: To proclaim the messages of salvation in Jesus Christ.” “The whole church must be mobilized to bring the whole gospel to the whole world. This is our calling. These are our orders.”

Kristian Lande
Before we start this month’s podcast interview, Jay Eastman will share on how the article on resilience connects with this podcast on discipleship. So, this is also a word of encouragement to each one of us – for you. We strongly recommend, that you take a moment to sit back and receive. And do pause the audio if you sense that you need to process what you hear.

Jay Eastman
I just want to build a quick bridge from the article, that was so helpful from Pablo Martinez on resilience in this time, and how resilience connects to discipleship and disciple making. Endurance. Resilience is a hallmark of being a disciple, and walking alongside others, as we make disciples. But the question is: What's necessary in this moment to carry on, to persist in this walk with Jesus ourselves and with others? And it brought me to Hebrews 6. And let me read you quickly from verse 17. So, when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise, which is us, the unchangeable character of his purpose. Beloved, regardless of whether there's a pandemic, or not a pandemic, God has provided in Christ, the unchangeable character of his purpose. He guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement, to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place, behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before, as a forerunner on our behalf. And so just quickly, in those words, of being encouraged, and holding fast, we see that Christ alone is our encouragement. That he holds to us fast, even when we are too weak to endure. And out of that strength, we are renewed and encouraged to walk further with him. And then that renewal and encouragement allows us to recast our mission and vision. And that comes in from Mark 1,16 through 18, that Christ invites the disciples to come, follow him, and that he will make us fishers of men, and women, and children. And so please, beloved, hear this disciples and disciple makers: Come today, in the strength, in the hope, in the anchor of Jesus Christ, and follow him anew this day. And he will make us disciple makers - in this day, and this time, in this pandemic - and he will not allow anything to get in the way of his purposes, it is sure and in him. And so I'm just glad to build that bridge from resilience and what it means to be in the shore hands of Christ. And then through this interview, look at what discipleship can look like in his sure hands, but practically around Europe.

Kristian Lande
Welcome, everybody. This is the Lausanne conversation podcast. And today we're looking at a really interesting topic. How can we keep on being and how can we keep on doing disciples, in such a time of hardship and resilience? And there are three of us today at this podcast. I'm Kristian Lande, from Norway, and we have with us Zala, our guest from Slovenia. Zala, could you just briefly tell us who you are?

Zala Cempre
Yeah. So, as you said, I am from Slovenia. I am a youth worker here. So, I work in my local church as an overseer of youth ministry. And I also work for Josiah Venture.

Kristian Lande
Wonderful. So, you have a burden for discipling young people in Slovenia?

Zala Cempre
Yes, I accepted Christ through youth ministry in my church. So, this is just what I've received, I am privileged to continue to do that, and work with youth and disciple them. So, I love it.

Kristian Lande
Beautiful. We are looking forward to get to know you more, and to hear from you. And the third guy in our podcast today is Jay. You're from the States, but you live in Germany. And you're kind of the heartbeat of the passion for discipleship in our conversation team in Lausanne. So, you've written a couple of pieces for us. And now you have this wish for this podcast. Could you just briefly say who you are? And then give us a bit of the background - why did you want to do a podcast on this topic?

Jay Eastman
Absolutely. Thank you, Kristian. I came to Berlin about 20 years ago, with my wife and three children. And our original job was to provide outreach opportunities, to add value in the life of a community - based on Christian values, and to express the Bible to people who wouldn't come inside to a church. And as people then came to faith, we did lots of evangelism. And as people came to faith, we then realized, oh, discipleship is key. People come to faith, but then they need to walk and grow in Christ. And so, we became heavily involved in outreach, and evangelism, but then also discipleship. So, I've been able to really enjoy the role of calling Christian groups and churches, to the focus on discipleship, that as we put roots deeper in Christ ourselves, it allows us then to have a firm foundation in Christ, and then see fruit coming from those roots. And so that's the discipleship focus for Lausanne Europe this year, and also for this podcast.

Kristian Lande
Wonderful. I just have to say that that I recognize myself very much in what you're saying, like, being involved in church planting and hands-on mission in the Czech Republic, having the same experience – we were starting with excitement reaching people, and then whoops; we need to disciple people, unless this is not going to last. What we really want to look at today is; in a time like we are we're facing now, I think what many of us face hardships, frustrations, resilience, like: achhh, come on, I'm just sick and tired of the whole COVID-19, and lockdowns, and not being able to meet people and hug people - this really it gives us struggles. Then how do we make disciples in a time like this, and how do we do it ourselves? So, the two of you: What are the struggles you are facing in making disciples in this time?

Zala Cempre
I think for me the biggest struggle is face to face. I can't meet with the students that I'm discipling face to face. And my favorite - like for discipleship I love when it's discipleship on the go, they're part of my life, they come over to my apartment, we cook together. We do things together. So, that's one thing that I miss the most during this time. And we'll still do zoom and talk. But it's not - like it's different. Some conversations won't come up, that they do otherwise when they sit on my couch. And I see maybe more how they're reacting to things that I say, and that's hard to - it's still possible to do over zoom for sure, but it's just harder. So, that's one thing that I really, really miss during this past year of not doing discipleship on the go, doing something together.

Jay Eastman
I would echo exactly what Zala just said in that discipleship is a dynamic, and a dynamic means that something's changing, that they're shifting, there's growth happening. And often, that dynamic is more visible, it's easier to get a grip on that dynamic of what God is doing in a group. And right now, at least in our setting in Berlin, and many other places in Europe, that that group dynamic simply isn't possible face to face. And when you're in a group online, it also feels more individual. There's just a lot lost over the screen. It's still possible, and we're thankful for the technology that we do have to connect in these ways. But it still doesn't reflect the dynamic of being in the same room and sharing life in that way. And, so what we're helping people focus on, is to say; the focus of the dynamic has to be different. It's you in prayer in your little closet. You know, we say in English; your little room - as Jesus teaches us to pray. There is a discipleship dynamic that way, there's a discipleship dynamic in working one on one with someone instead of a small group. And so, some of the people we work with think the momentum is slowing in the kingdom of God. And that's not true. The momentum of the kingdom of God is as steady as ever. It's just, it's harder to see it in a group dynamic. The focus has to be different on ourselves, in our personal relationship with the Lord - going deeper in Christ every day, and also more one on one relationships.

Kristian Lande
So, what I hear you're saying is that we need to shift our mindset, on how we are tackling this task. We need to look more at how me and Jesus are doing - think more one and one, instead of thinking the group. Does anyone have you had any, any concrete examples of how that look like?

Zala Cempre
Like for me, just how I function. I'm like; I'm fine, fine, fine, … and then I'm not. So, for me, it's not usually the progression. And I think, even this past year, I was fine, God has blessed big time: With new opportunities even though we were so limited, and people accepting Christ. So, it's been super encouraging. But I’ve hit some roadblocks in my walk with the Lord. I felt like I'm in the desert for some time. And I think for me, now that I look back – God, he's so gracious, things that he has taught me through it, and how he carried me. Now that I look back, I am so thankful that this year was hard for me, and that I had to - you know, when the water goes down, like the rock start to come up - they were always there, some doubts that I wasn't aware of that I'm facing. This year I had to face them and go in front of the Lord and be like: I have no idea what to do with that, but I choose you, I worship you. So, in this past year, with just focusing on my relationship with the Lord, I had to start doing more intentional times with the Lord. So, for example, this next week, I will take the whole day, and just spend in silence with the Lord, asking a couple of questions, praying: So that I can receive from him, and I'm not relying on my own strength and my own wisdom. So, this past year, for my relationship with the Lord it uncovered some of the heart stuff or some doubts. And I am so thankful that he was so gracious to show me those things in my heart that I wasn't aware before.

Kristian Lande
Thank you. I think, I can definitely see myself in this kind of: I'm doing fine, fine, fine, and then all of a sudden - not at all. And not really understanding, until I'm in the middle of it, that I'm not doing fine right now. And, one of the things you said was; intentionally to take a day off with the Lord. Are there other things or people that helped you through that period?

Zala Cempre
Yeah. So, I love people, and that's, you know, the piece that I was missing the most. And oftentimes, you know, when you're doing discipleship on the go, you're sharing things as you … And this past year, I had to be extra intentional to call someone and say: Hey, I'm struggling with this, or I have this doubt. So, now I'm meeting with one friend every week, and we won't just stop with how we are doing, but we'll pray. So, every week we meet for maybe an hour, or sometimes even less, and we share - really a little bit – like: Hey, how are you doing? How was your week? This is this is how it was. And then every time we're like: Okay, now let's spend time in prayer and give the questions, the joys and the sorrows of this past week, to the Lord. And that's what I was really missing; not being with people this past year, and even worshiping together. That I now intentionally have every week; this friend, we meet, and I know that we'll pray for an extended period of time - pray together, and come in front of the Lord.

Kristian Lande
Beautiful. How is that for you, Jay? How has it been for you to tackle the downs in this period?

Jay Eastman
Yeah, I think it's similar to Zala. For myself, and for a couple key people - future leaders, from the core group of our church plant that will, Lord willing, spring out of the evangelism project that we're doing right now - it's been not just talking about; “Well, we're busy, and we need to pray more.” We just have started praying more. And I think I'm just gonna leave it there. We've been relieved of some of the business. And it's been clear to us: We can now pray more. Either by ourselves, going in a quiet place with just me and the Lord, or together, if the law allows us to meet with one other person. More prayer.

Kristian Lande
Cool, thank you. I really want to encourage all of you who are listening to talk about this in your impact group. Get it out. Pray together. And if you don't have that person, or those persons, or that kind of routine with some people: How might you find that? Thank you, guys for the tip. I'll bring it with me into my life.

If we look back at like leading others, in this time. Discipling others: You talked a bit about getting people close, and getting people with you in what you're doing, as you walk. Do you have some concrete examples of how, how have you been able to do that in this time?

Zala Cempre
For me this past year … so as I said, God has been blessing our ministry big time. He just started bringing people during the first lockdown. One of the students in our church, he said, “Hey, we'll be on lockdown!” On day one he said, “Let's start reading the Bible together!” And then till the end of May, we had students from across Slovenia, who joined us for a Bible study every single night. So, as God was bringing people together, even though it was over Zoom, I was still able to walk alongside youth, to encourage them and, and disciple them - as God was bringing opportunities to be in the word, and to share Christ. I think otherwise, I went on a couple of walks. So even though we weren't able to meet in person inside, I was able to go on a couple of walks with youth, or I send them - just to be focusing on our relationship - I send them some packages. Or I call them, outside of our meeting times, over Zoom: Hey, how are you doing? How can I be praying for you? So, it was just being intentional outside of our meeting times, to check on how they're doing, praying for them. And then with a limited option of meeting new people and maybe doing evangelism, just being focused on like, okay, who is in your life that you can share Christ with, or that you can disciple? How can we not be focused on what we're limited from, but who are people in our lives right now? So, for example, even for me personally, God opened up some doors with my family. My niece, who is four years old is asking me - like for the past month she is asking me questions about God all the time. And she's like; tell me everything. So that's been a really cool opportunity. Or I was able to share Christ with my grandpa. So, basically then leading people in this time is to be focused on; who are the people that God put in your life right now? And not just being focused on who you can't meet, and what you cannot do?

Jay Eastman
Amen.

Kristian Lande
Beautiful. And have you had your leaders doing the same for you?

Zala Cempre
Like telling me to do that?

Kristian Lande
Like calling up on you, and checking off how you're doing?

Zala Cempre
Yeah, for sure. And especially friends. I had a lot of friends with whom I was very able to, you know … Hey, this is how I'm doing, let's pray together. So, it's been sweet to see some of those friendships, and how God provided for me and cared for me through those friendships.

Kristian Lande
The beautiful thing here is: What I hear is a culture of taking care of one another, of discipling one another, of helping one another through this time. And I think; probably that’s not what everyone faces and have around us. So, I think it's something about; if you who are listening, don't have that: How can you start it? Cry out to God: I really want to see this culture in my community, in my church, my organization - because it's so needed.

Jay Eastman
Yeah, I'll continue with that thought Kristian. That's excellent. In Christian circles, we can have structures of leadership, people checking in on people, we can also have a culture of walking with one another. And both work. And the question is: What do you see as your role in the structure? Or what do you see as your life in a culture? And how can you receive but also how can you give. So, I think both are wonderful. And it's great to hear that the culture that Zala has, is so life giving. And I think that's just a great reflection of discipleship in itself. It's a life-giving culture. And that's what I would just say quickly, with our local situation, is we've had non-Christians - literally since the beginning of 2021, all of a sudden, the Holy Spirit flipped a switch, and I've been taking walks and meeting with lots of non-Christians just one on one. And they're wondering - the biggest question is: We know you're a Christian. How then can you sleep at night, knowing there's this horrible pandemic going on? People are dying. How do you have peace? Where do you find that? And just pointing to a source of that peace, that is outside the pandemic, that God is bigger than the pandemic. He is involved with dealing with the pandemic - yes, but He is bigger, and in that sense outside of it. And to say that we know from the Bible: God created the world, it was good, and then there was a rupture in that goodness. And Jesus has come to demonstrate both the healing of that rupture, but then that the rupture does exist. So, we're in this in-between time of knowing both God's goodness, but also the fallen nature of the world, and that God has a plan to redeem that rupture, but it's not complete yet. So, we know that being redeemed, therefore, I can sleep at night, knowing that God is at work redeeming the rupture. And I can offer then hope - to point to a God that is bigger than the pandemic. And we just do the same with our Christian friends: To remind that God is bigger. But also to get past the veneer of: “Well, yeah, we have a pretty good life.” To say, “Okay, what does it look like? Where are we struggling now?” To be resilient when we are tired. When what worked last year, or maybe two years ago now. What worked then; to get through the week, have a Bible study and go to church – okay, we're struggling right now, in new ways. And God meets us in that struggle. And to point to that new needing, of a good shepherd who comes and draws near to us in our time of need. And just to work with those that we disciple and lead them to meet him in new ways, more deeply than before.

Kristian Lande
Yeah, thank you. I think what I'm hearing from both of you now, is sort of two keys of discipleship. Both of them out of the relationship you have with people, either those you're being discipled by, or the once you're discipling. So out of that relationship, I hear that: One is the support, to keep on living, to keep on coping, looking forward and be optimistic. The second one is to, in that relationship, help shape the way you see the world, the way you see everything – to shape it from a biblical perspective. To get a new way of thinking. And even, as you are saying Jay, the beauty of doing that with people who are not yet Christians - to help them in the middle of this. And I think that's where I want us to end: We are hopefully soon getting out of this. Hopefully - I'm always an optimist. I'm planning that this summer - you're too Zala, that’s good - this summer, I'm going to go on mission trips to different parts of Europe. That's … I just want to do that. And I really think we need to plan as if it's gonna finish now. Because I think people out there need help to start living again. And I think they need help to answer all the questions they have. And now is the time to, to be there and to be present in society, and help people. Right now, it's hard to be as present as we want, because of all these restrictions. But when they leave, we can be in the middle of things, and get those conversations, and help people to understand: How can you understand these things from biblical a perspective?

Zala Cempre
Yeah, I agree. And so, again - what will summer bring is another thing - but I'm really hopeful. And so, with our church we’re planning to have three camps. We've never had three camps before. It's been a weird year. We see people are seeking and asking deeper questions, and life questions. And we want to reach out. And maybe we'll need to cancel all three camps, but we are taking a step of faith and planning, with the hope that we can reach out to all these youth.

Kristian Lande
Beautiful. You know, after the Spanish – what is it called? - the Spanish pandemic, or whatever it's called, the one that came in the 1920s, 100 years ago: They said that the world just went kind of crazy afterwards - bubbling of life. And I just want us to be in the middle of that and make it a Jesus life, and not just random life. Ok Jay and Zala, thanks a lot for being on this podcast. And have a blessed week, everybody.

Recording of John Stott “It comes more natural to us, to shout the gospel at people from a distance, then to involve ourselves deeply in their lives, to think ourselves into their problems and into their culture, and to feel with them in their pains.”